What happens if I suspend two cards at once?
Asked by mtghypatia 9 years ago
I run a Jhoira of the Ghitu commander deck (Jhoira, you have 4 turns), and I'm not sure what happens if I suspend a board sweep card (lets say Obliterate ) and a creature (lets say Blightsteel Colossus ) at the same time.
Four turns later, when both cards get cast at the same time, does Obliterate destroy every creature, or every creature except Blightsteel Colossus ?
mtghypatia says... #2
hahaha, now I realize Blightsteel Colossus was a poor choice for the example. But if I get you right, that means that if I suspend Obliterate and lets say It That Betrays I can chose to cast the board sweep first and the creature after so that it survives alone in the board. Right?
Thanks for your answer.
June 22, 2014 8:29 p.m.
But if I get you right, that means that if I suspend Obliterate and lets say It That Betrays I can chose to cast the board sweep first and the creature after so that it survives alone in the board. Right?
That is correct, and is what makes Jhoira a very powerful (and often hated-on) general.
June 22, 2014 8:47 p.m.
mtghypatia says... #4
Awesome, I think I would have won some games I lost last week if I knew that :P thanks for your help! Please feel free to check out my deck and comment on it :)
June 22, 2014 9:06 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #5
While what you said about needing to choose to cast the Obliterate
first and then the It That Betrays
remember that the way you need to stack the suspend triggers is It That Betrays
suspend trigger on the stack first and then Obliterate
since you need the obliterate suspend trigger to resolve first letting you cast it.
I'm unsure how picky your playgroup is about wording when it comes to the stack but there are people who are very picky and i foresee your playgroup looking for any way for you to not have an Eldrazi at the end of all this.
June 22, 2014 9:10 p.m.
mtghypatia says... #6
I didn't get that part. Do you mean I need to say that It That Betrays resolves first so that Obliterate triggers first and then the creature comes into play?
I'm confused :(
June 22, 2014 10:52 p.m.
@pviollier: No. You need to put the trigger to remove the last time counter from It That Betrays on the stack first, with the one to remove the last counter from Obliterate above it. The stack then resolves top-to-bottom. But, really, don't worry about this. In any decent playgroup you can just say what order you want them to resolve in and everyone will understand perfectly.
@Gidgetimer: I'm not really sure how relevant that is... if you say "Obliterate will happen first," there isn't any confusion, and somebody wouldn't say "I put Obliterate on the stack first" unless they actually know enough about how the stack works to know what that means.
June 22, 2014 11:26 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #8
You are going to have 2 cards suspended and at the beginning of each of your upkeeps you are going to have 2 triggers to put on the stack. The sequence needs to go like this:
It That Betrays 's suspend trigger is put on the stack.
Obliterate 's suspend trigger is put on the stack.
Obliterate 's suspend ability resolves (first in, last out ordering) removing the last suspend counter and casting Obliterate as part of the resolution.
Since Obliterate is now on the stack above It That Betrays 's suspend trigger, Obliterate is the next thing to resolve destroying all creatures and lands.
It That Betrays 's suspend trigger resolves removing the last time counter and casting It That Betrays as part of it's resolution.
It That Betrays resolves and you have a hasty Eldrazi while everyone else has no creatures or lands.
If I confused you, I'm sorry its just that I have known people to be OCD about how things are put on the stack so when you are trying to pull off bullshit abusing the stack it is best to know how to explain what is going on. So that not only can you explain it to your opponents if need be, but you also are confident and will not be dissuaded by them trying to weasel out of the horrible situation you put them in.
June 22, 2014 11:27 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #9
Drilnoth: it is very relevant in my opinion, in my experience there are 3 types of players
People who know enough to know what you are trying to do and that it is perfectly legal, and will accept it as a good play.
People who know what you are trying to do and that it is perfectly legal but will try to get you to misspeak to avoid it.
People who don't know enough to know that what just happened is perfectly legal and will, based off of just "it can't work that way, that is silly" argue adamantly.
I have run into far more of the second and third types than the first personally but that may be my bad luck.
June 22, 2014 11:36 p.m.
That sounds like bad luck. In my experience EDH is a very friendly format which trends towards the first. If somebody falls into the second category, the correct thing to do is to not play with them, not to accept that level of dickishness.
June 23, 2014 12:16 a.m.
@Gidgetimer: I was going to PM this to you so as to not clutter up a simple rules question, but it seems that TappedOut doesn't have such functionality, so I'll just put it here anyway.
Anyways, the main reason I didn't want to get into too much detail with how things actually go on the stack is because that often gets confusing. Most non-tournament players (and even a good number of tournament players at levels like FNM) don't really understand the stack, and I inferred this was probably the case here when OP said "when both cards get cast at the same time." Explaining the rules is good, but going into detail with how things get put on and resolve from the stack when somebody doesn't even fully understand the stack only makes things confusing.
To quote Maro (from here):
Imagine Magic as a car. The Stack (along with the rest of the current rules) is the engine. It's quite important. Without it, the car doesn't run. Anyone who uses the car is mighty glad the engine is there. But here's the important point. Most people don't really care how the engine works. They just want it to make the car move. As long as it does that, it's doing its job. The majority of the Magic-playing public only wants to know enough to drive the car. They hear someone start to talk about the engine and they tune out. That's for mechanics (a.k.a. rules gurus).
June 23, 2014 12:22 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #13
It seems like I may have had an unique way of being introduced to Magic. I learned from my friend Vincent who is a Level 1 judge and within 2 hours of beginning to play understood the stack. Now part of this is because I have worked with electronics in general and programming of computers in specific and understand FILO and why it would be necessary for counterspells and such.
While I said that most people fall into the second or third categories that I listed, I meant the majority of the players I have met (most falling into the third category to be honest. People who just don't want to accept that the rules allow this ridiculousness and only ever learn enough to cast spells and turn dudes sideways.) The people I play with the most understand rules enough to know they allow for massive bullshit and will accept most plays. Those that do try to pull "what order?" bullshit are always shut down by either Vincent or myself answering for anyone who is unsure of exactly how things are supposed to stack, and they quickly learn to go elsewhere if they want to win off confusion.
Sorry for turning this question into a discussion of the necessity (or lack thereof) of knowing how the stack works and how players react to plays allowed by the rules but that seem a little more powerful than should be allowed.
Drilnoth says... Accepted answer #1
They don't get cast at the same time. You, basically, choose one to have get cast and resolve before the other one even gets cast.
Details: On your upkeep, both the triggers to remove time counters from them go on the stack. You choose the order they go on the stack, so you choose which order they resolve in. When the first "remove-a-time-counter" trigger resolves and removes the last one, it immediately creates a "cast-this-card" trigger, still above the other "remove-a-time-counter" trigger. That "cast-this-card" trigger resolves, and the card is put on the stack. It will resolve and either have its effects or enter the battlefield before the last time counter is even removed from the other suspended card.
REGARDLESS: Blightsteel Colossus has indestructible, so I don't think Obliterate really cares about it. :)
June 22, 2014 8:23 p.m.