Does WotC Still Support Flickering as a Strategy?
General forum
Posted on Nov. 3, 2022, 10:13 p.m. by DemonDragonJ
I am very fond of "flickering" creatures that have ETB abilities to reuse those abilities, but WotC has not printed very many cards that flicker creatures, recently, instead preferring to focus on phasing out creatures, which I severely dislike, since creatures phasing in does not cause abilities to trigger.
Thus, I am wondering: does WotC still support flickering as a strategy? What does everyone else say about this?
wallisface says... #3
Wotc is still producing cards that flicker and will continue to do so. They have stated that they want to move away from flickering being done at instant speed - as such an effect becomes too much of both an offensive & defensive tool.
You’re pretty-much only going to see sorcery-speed flickering in the future of magic, with Phasing being used as the instant-speed defensive tool.
November 4, 2022 3:37 a.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #4
wallisface, I do not like that, since instant-speed flickering is a tried-and-true way to protect creatures from being destroyed, so I do not understand why WotC would wish to abandon that strategy.
November 5, 2022 12:13 a.m.
wallisface says... #5
DemonDragonJ You might not like that, but that's what they've decided, and its the way the game will head. Personally, I think it is a much healthier direction to take the effect. Wotc are concerned that flickering at instant speed does too much - which is why they're relegating it to sorcery-speed, and letting phasing become the defensive instant-speed option.
If you're wanting an effect to protect your stuff at instant speed, phasing is still there to support you.
It's pretty clear from existing instant-speed flickering effects that they just create too high a blowout (defending your creature and getting strong etb effects), so it's pretty obvious why wizards would want to restrict when flickering can happen, to give other abilities better viability, and prevent flickering auto-winning too many games.
November 5, 2022 12:30 a.m.
wallisface says... #7
Yeah I thought it was also, but couldn’t find it when having a quick look. If someone can dig it up and post the link it may save us all repeating the same conversation
November 5, 2022 6:55 p.m.
wallisface says... #8
Here is the original thread. I’ve just noticed it was also posted by the same user. So DemonDragonJ i’m not sure what new ground has been covered since this last discussion?
November 5, 2022 7:05 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #9
wallisface, where has WotC explicitly stated that they wished for flickering to be only at sorcery speed, with phasing as the instant-speed option?
November 7, 2022 10:58 p.m.
wallisface says... #10
DemonDragonJ Mark Rosewater discussed it on Blogatog a long while ago, but i'm not about to go trawling through the endless-history on that site, so the best bet might be to ask him yourself and see what he says.
Doing a quick 5 second google we can see some comments from Wotc members around the return of Phasing. From this article we have this quote: "Verhey also explains how bringing back Phasing solves the problem of flickering (re-trigggering ETB effects) with exile-and-return effects." - I do get that this one sentence isn't particularly fulfilling in either direction
I can only remember Rosewater talking about flickering causing play-design concerns on Blogatog when Phasing was first re-introduced... but unfortunately it doesn't look like there's much of any other public announcement on the matter.
November 8, 2022 12:28 a.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #11
wallisface, since when is re-triggering ETB abilities a "problem?" That sounds like a perfectly valid strategy, to me.
November 10, 2022 9:41 p.m.
wallisface says... #12
DemonDragonJ its a problem for game design. The goal of Wotc isn't to make every ability as overpowered as possible.
Sorcery-speed re-triggering of ETBs is pretty safe. Instant-speed triggers starts to get problematic: With instant-speed flicker, its pretty common for an opponent to try and kill a creature, just to have it flickered in response, both completely cancelling out their killspell, but ALSO allowing you to get profits from a re-triggering of an ETB.
It makes sense that a game company looking for card-balance wouldn't like that instant-speed flickering covers such a wide-base of effects, being able to be so powerfully defend ones boardstate while simultaneously allowing for strong aggressive effects.
It is very likely that Phasing was bought back so that they could "split" instant-speed flickering, so that Phasing handles the defensive-aspect of that effect, while sorcery-speed flickering then can allow for re-triggering of abilities and so-forth.
Ask anyone who's had to deal with Ephemerate+Solitude and how messy and impossible that situation quickly becomes.
If the company decided to keep instant-speed flickering, then they would most-certainly HAVE to dial back how powerful ETB effects could be, and that's clearly not something they'd want to do as it restricts design space. Splitting flickerings effects across Phasing allows them to broaden their design space and create more interesting ideas, without being hindered as much by the abuse instant-speed-flickering can create.
Footnote: you seem to be discussing this with me as if I somehow can change the course of the future, which just isn't the case. I'm just trying my best to articulate the reasoning for Wotc's likely move-away from instant-speed flickering the best I can. When I posted a quote made by Verhey on "ETB abilities being a problem", those were his words, not mine, but your reply seems to make me think you believe I'm personally accountable somehow? I'm just acting a messenger in these conversations, trying to illustrate a companies reasoning for balancing an effect.
November 10, 2022 10:21 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #13
wallisface, I certainly did not intend to appear as if I was blaming you for WotC's decision, because I know that you are not responsible for it, and, if that is the decision that WotC has made, then I suppose that I cannot do much about it.
November 11, 2022 12:01 a.m.
wallisface says... #14
DemonDragonJ all goods dude, text on the internet is very easy to misinterpret, and i’ve obviously done so here.
It’s certainly an interesting conversation point in any case and it will be interesting to see how far Wotc push Phasing, and what flicker-effects end up looking like 2-3 years from now.
November 11, 2022 6:08 a.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #15
wallisface, it appears that WotC's issues with creatures with ETB abilities is only a recent one, since they never had a problem with that in the early years of the game, so what was the final straw that influenced their decision to have flickering be largely only on sorceries? Was there one particular creature that was too powerful, or was it the gradual increase in the number of creatures with ETB abilities?
November 11, 2022 11:59 p.m.
wallisface says... #16
DemonDragonJ I have no idea what stemmed their change in decision, though their change in policy seemed to happen not long after Ephemerate became widely popular in Modern - though that’s likely just a coincidence. It’s hard to pin-down what would have stemmed their decisions, but I suspect it would have started from them seeing troublesome/obnoxious flicker interactions in 2-or-more formats, with Standard being the one they watch the most.
November 12, 2022 12:11 a.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #17
wallisface, yes, Ephemerate is a very powerful card, so I would not be surprised if it influenced their decision on that matter.
SteelSentry says... #2
There's usually a couple cards a set that do it if it's not a full draft archetype; Unfinity had Now You See Me ..., DMU had Golden Argosy, and it was the UW draft theme in Baldur's Gate, with cards like Oji, the Exquisite Blade, Displacer Kitten and Pegasus Guardian.
If anything, the use of Phasing seems sparing and careful. I can't remember any recent phasing cards besides Slip Out the Back.
November 3, 2022 10:50 p.m.